Pay-for-it without permission

seyhan11

I did not click or sign into anything. 3 text messages appeared thanking me for subscribing to their jamjarclub from "4.50 pounds a week" and all other tricks as listed below. What is DIFFERENT this time is the number you call does not even allow you to claim refund back due to unauthorised charges. It has automated voice saying now you unsubscribed and "good byeee" and after call ends Giffgaff lets you know that your account balance - which is short of that "4.50" pounds!

This is clearly a scam and theft and hacking in my view, and Giffgaff absolutely has to refund me as they are equally responsible of this knowing that there is this scam company doing this for a while. I will claim from giffgaff as that scam place gives you no choice to do so.. I will let you know what happens. And I will report this scam to authorities.

muggles708

@seyhan11

There was another report of the Jam Jar mobile scam yesterday, and there is some good advice on that thread.

https://community.giffgaff.com/t5/Help-Support/Jam-Jar-Club-Mobile-SCAM/m-p/22921902

You are right that GiffGaff should take responsibility for allowing these scams on their network, however as things stand they won't!

The customer service numbers are often only answered during working hours, so it might be worth trying to speak to them again on Monday morning.

If you are unable to contact Jam Jar to arrange a refund, GiffGaff are supposed to sort it out. In my experience they won't. However, the threat of a Small Claims action is likely to get you a result.

Paul

jaymailsays

@seyhan11 good luck with your complaint. Try the tactic of saying the £4.50 is a claim from you.

T&C

3.7. You must tell us immediately by emailing datacontroller@giffgaff.co.uk, if anyone makes or threatens to make any claim or issue legal proceedings against you relating to your use of the Service or the Content and you will, at our request, immediately stop the act or acts complained of. If we ask you to, you must confirm the details of the claim(s) in writing.

There is a reply from a giffgaff staff member here.

https://community.giffgaff.com/t5/Contribute/Come-and-get-involved-in-our-Lean-UX-workshop/m-p/22918403#M544791

bluenose5

Thank You seyhan11 100% Theft.

muddycalhoun

@seyhan11 You have revisited a real issue of importance and one that in my opinion should not be left unaddressed any longer.

Payforit seemed like a"good idea at the time" I expect but it has become a money eating bête noir of the mobile networks, whatever the reasons why it is something that giffgaff really let every one of us down by their fence sitting. Not a day goes by without some poor and frustrated member posting a request for help or some kind of explanation in Help and Support having been deducted three, four or five quid from their credit for what they don't know or why.

There is a labs suggestion that probably is our best method for urging giffgaff to give some level of protection, although with the track record of labs ideas, their implementation versus the votes polled is not any guarantee.

With one implemented idea having a handful of votes and other with thousands of yes votes can be deemed not for us. I think this might be a good option for giffgaff to restore some degree of credibility to the whole labs process, that is excellent in its conception but let down by the execution. Here is the 2FA suggestion for payforit in labs, its already polled about two hundred and fifty votes and if the spiel about labs has any veracity it would be worth your vote.

https://labs.giffgaff.com/idea/16712363/require-2-factor-authentication-to-sign-up-for-payforit-tex#

Let us hope our caring sharing run by us provider will do what the giant impersonal EE have for their customers. Please, with a cherry on top giffgaff

Hopefully if it was so then giffgaff wouldn't have to field any other requests for redress from members like yourself who have undoubtedly been ripped off and whose interests weren't protected by your mobile provider.

frenchielove

Thanks for that link @muddycalhoun just voted

seyhan11

Here is an update. I contacted jam jar via email, told them to refund money writing directly that this is really a theft etc. They responded with an official automated like response, saying "if you are not happy with services YOU subscribed to, then we will refund. "Your Mobile Network does not allow to refund back so " so we will send you a post office slip for refund??? Not sure what this is.. Will wait to see if this is true, BUT WHY GiffGaff Cooperates and does not protect my data and my money, gives them my number, and deducts money from my account, while does not allow TO REFUND back to my account? If this is true, I think this is outrageous as well.

Cooperating what is clearly theft and fraud, and data impeachment, I don't buy it to the payforit technology protocol or explanation, I work in IT in software development.. not in this area.. But I think it can clearly be protected. I used to like GiffGaff till this incident, now I have not so nice feelings.

I will post about if I get a POST Office check or whatever for that 4.50 pounds.. of course, even if this is true, next excuse is it takes ages for this kind of refund, right?

seyhan11

I absolutely agree that we should not just leave this as our personal incident of 4.50 and complain and move on, we should force GiffGaff to take precautions and protect our personal data such as phone number, and account, money.. we trust them with this. This is in my opinion data impeachment, regardless of what is said about this so called protocol or technology...

muggles708

@seyhan11 wrote:

"Your Mobile Network does not allow to refund back so " so we will send you a post office slip for refund??? Not sure what this is.. Will wait to see if this is true, BUT WHY GiffGaff Cooperates and does not protect my data and my money, gives them my number, and deducts money from my account, while does not allow TO REFUND back to my account? If this is true, I think this is outrageous as well.

I will post about if I get a POST Office check or whatever for that 4.50 pounds.. of course, even if this is true, next excuse is it takes ages for this kind of refund, right?

@seyhan11

You almost certainly will receive a refund. It is ridiculous that these companies are unable to refund directly to your phone account. They have no trouble taking the money, but are unable to return the money with the same speed and ease! The text based postal order method is commonly used as a method of refund.

This is actually illegal under consumer rights law. Refunds should be made to the account from which the money was taken, unless the consumer agrees otherwise.

Payforit breaks the law in so many ways, but the networks know that it would be expensive to mount a legal challenge. However, knowing that the law is ultimately on your side makes it easy to get a refund. I have dealt with many cases in the past year, but none of them have actually gone to court, because the companies know they would lose.

GiffGaff should be ashamed to be associated with such a shonky system.

tradertall

that's bad

harrrrrry

@seyhan11

"Your Mobile Network does not allow to refund back so " so we will send you a post office slip for refund???

The first part of that sentence is presumably untrue, as other companies using payforit seem to have managed it for other members.

I suggest you ask the PSA whether it is correct that this company apparently "cannot" refund you directly and immediately and point out that for most services it is a legal requirement that they refund to the same account that the payment came from, unless the customer agrees otherwise.

If nothing else, it would be interesting to know whether PSA takes a responsible attitude and confirms this is unacceptable, or simply tries to wash its hands of the matter.

jaymailsays

harrrrrry wrote: <snip> for most services it is a legal requirement that they refund to the same account that the payment came from, unless the customer agrees otherwise.

@harrrrrry That can't really be so?

When giffgaff refunded members for the double charging that occurred over a two year period, many of them complained about the method of refund as giffgaff refused to credit the bank account that the top up had come from.

The payforit system in our networks case is controlled by Telefonica, if the merchant is prevented from refunding direct to a giffgaff account the fault lies with Telefonica/O2.

harrrrrry

@jaymailsays

Best I could find is http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/4/enacted

56 Right to price reduction

(2)The amount of the reduction may, where appropriate, be the full amount of the price

(5)The trader must give the refund using the same means of payment as the consumer used to pay for the service, unless the consumer expressly agrees otherwise.

In the case of the giffgaff overcharge refund, the overcharge would presumably have come out of the user's PAYG credit, so giffgaff could possibly argue:

that refunding to PAYG credit would constitute refunding by the same means of payment. but ...

a refund to PAYG credit would not be in the member's interest if the member had subsequently ceased using the service

There's a reasonable counter-argument that if the member had auto topup enabled, the overcharge might have caused the balance to triggeran indirect charge to the member's payment card and so giffgaff ought to be willing to perform a discretionary refund after the overpayment had been added back to PAYG credit -- but that would presumably apply only to specific cases where it could be shown that the overcharge triggered the topup.

If payforit has no means to provide a refund, then that is yet another defect in the payforit system.

ceky_data3

Absolutely shameful scam, I did get a refund via PayPal through one of them, but it did cost me a few phone calls and time I will never get back... in my case it was missspelled web address of a utility provider, so definitely a trap set by these scammers!

Phone number counts ad personal data and should be protected under GDPR, I would like my mobile service provider to stop sending my phone number to anyone whilst being online! How is current situation even possible under GDPR and why are these scammers getting our phone numbers?

jaymailsays

@ceky_data3 Whilst I mostly agree with you on this.

You me and every other member agreed, as part of your giffgaff service, to allow the sharing of your number, by agreeing to their T&C.

Do I think it unfair?

Yes, I do!

nefarius

Ask giffgaff if they can block this service on your account. And if not, why? Post back here.

exmember-9854373

@seyhan11 been said hundreds of times but doesn't hurt to repeat - Payforit scams have been around for years. Are giffgaff aware of them? Obviously. Could they provide us with the tools to block Payforit payments? But of course! They just choose to pass our mobile numbers to websites that hide behind iframes and what not and charge us for something that we would never consent to. They also choose not to protect us against these scams. As simple as.

exmember-9854373

@jaymailsays I've just finished a round of correspondence with giffgaff's complaints team re sharing my number with the third-party and (even though in the T&Cs) , this being potentially uncompartible with GDPR.

I was now given the postal address of their Data Protection team (deciding not to have an email address to write to is obviously for my convenience innit).

You know what be good - if other customers joined efforts to sign or even to help with properly drafting the letter. And forwarding this to ICO at a later stage.

Sadly, people just tend to moan and are very reluctant to actually act.

nefarius

I'm struggling with factoids here. I'm sure the OP would appreciate evidence based facts.