Suspensions for text message abuse - what you need to know

jesi23

mrsgrowler Sorry if this is a silly question but as all bags now come with unlimited texts is the final paragraph relevant?
Yes, because what Dave said is:
dcameron194 If you see an advert for a service that says that they’ll pay you for your unused allowances

I think it is relevant as although THIS particular app is offering to pay you for unused SMS allowances, another service could offer you payment for ANY unused allowances, so this statement covers all options. Although there is no difference between unlimited minutes and texts allowances (all unlimited at present) for any Goodybag, you should be choosing your Goodybag depending on your needs rather than seeking to benefit from any unused allowances. _{_🤡}

dtuxcomp

mrsgrowler It’s unlimited texts for personal use, it still costs the network to send each one so if people are using an app that autosends texts that’s a cost for giffgaff, and ultimately us as members.

mrjeeves

Here’s some info I’ve compiled for people to use:

Why is this against the T’s and C’s? How does it work?

It texts numbers allocated to networks other than the one you’re using, causing giffgaff to be charged an SMS termination fee.

As the message is basically garbage data, the termination fee is for nothing, the SMS gets thrown away by the other network or the receiver’s device/server.

It’s a question of how Mofono make money… The receiving networks are the ones who are getting the money, so how does that transfer over to Mofono? At about 2 Euro cents per SMS (in July 2018), Mofono give you 0.45p/SMS. All the rest is shared between the receiving network and Mofono it seems.

@i_am_sy’s thought is that Mofono may have bought a defunct MVNO or two. That means they’d take over the contract with the MNO and convince them to agree to a deal where they get part of the termination charge revenue. The MNO can’t back out, else they’d be breaking the contract, meaning they are stuck Mofono abusing their services.

If the above is right, Mofono end up with 100k numbers (07xxx 000000 - 07xxx 999999), a share of the SMS termination fees, and access to the main network’s systems. Remember it’s all assumptions and guesswork at the moment.

In a nutshell…

You will be barred if you use it
It spams texts every 5 mins to other networks
giffgaff get charged about 2 euro cents for each of these messages (which is a lot on the already thin margins)
We’ll all end up with price rises if it was allowed

Myself and @i_am_sy worked this out at about 1 am last night. 😛

Feel free to use all this info in your answers - just make sure to change Myself at the end to a mention of @mrjeeves

pdean230470

dcameron194

Hi Dave,

Unfortunately I’m one of the barred accounts for using this app.

The problem is I just thought I was using a few of my unused texts, which are unlimited. I had no idea I was breaching giffgaff rules and to be fair, I don’t regularly visit the community pages here unless there’s a problem, but suddenly and without warning yesterday my account was barred at around 6pm, this completely unexpectedly and like others I was left fumbling about trying to fathom what had happened?

I do apologise unreservedly as I now see what has happened, but consequently today, I am still waiting after 16 hours without any service and for one of your agents to hopefully restore my service, meanwhile unable to make or receive business calls for my job.

Like others I don’t keep a set of giffgaffs terms on my bedside table so hopefully you will forgive this unintentional oversight, but please do try and more widely circulate through members email notices about bans blocks and bars before taking action as many people have very unwittingly and genuinely made a mistake by using this app and are now left floundering without service.

rickvigorous

pdean230470 no idea I was breaching giffgaff rules

That is your mistake. Are you planning to payback the money you made on the app? There is no such thing as free money and bassically the money mofono and you made came from giffgaff and its users.
Unfortunatly a lot of people get fooled by these scams 🙁

jaymailsays

dcameron194
I quite understand the reasons why banning these apps makes commercial sense as the app owners are in effect re-selling giffgaff services, which is completely against giffgaff’s T&Cs.

What I find harsh is when a new member, joining giffgaff for legitimate reasons, then finds all their services barred, without transparent communication on why their services have been or will be suspended for sending multiple texts, for example telling contacts, that they have changed their mobile number.

This issue is especially vital during Covid-19 when track and trace is essential to many member’s health. So much so, although I hardly use sms, preferring WhatsApp I feel the withdrawal of service, lacks transparency by giffgaff and that the member suspension issue should be audited by Ofcom to ensure giffgaff T&Cs are fair.

dtuxcomp

I’ve missed most of the discussion about this subject so forgive any ignorance, but I’d assume there would be a warning message first, like there is for people who go way over the limit on the always-on bag ?

mrjeeves

dtuxcomp

The warning applies to everything, and other networks have similar clauses in their T’s & C’s.

jaymailsays

dtuxcomp I’d assume there would be a warning message first, like there is for people who go way over the limit on the always-on bag ?

From the affected members I have seen posting in and around Help, they are automatically suspended without prior warning.

Often they think it is a network or sim failure and have no inkling they have broken a rule.

The number that continues working after suspension is 443 and/or the nhs number.

Clearly once barred no texts get through and if you only use your linked email inbox on your phone, with mobile data, your emails won’t work either.

Reinstatement by agents is discretionary and if the offence is repeated, barring is permanent.

mrsgrowler

dtuxcomp
The difference is that if you over use the Always On bag you are just breaching giffgaff’s own policies whereas the sending of SPAM is an illegal activity
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3120628.stm

So the answer to your question

dtuxcomp do people who are doing this receive any kind of message asking them to stop before they are banned ?

is no.

Because it is something that needs to be stopped immediatley it is done automatically by the system as soon as it detects suspicious activity.

That way only the “innocent” will contact giffgaff to ask why their service has stopped, then when told why will explain what they did - eg “I sent a text to all me mates” - apologise and say they won’t do it again .

Whereas I doubt a spammer would bother!

funkicus

dtuxcomp No, there isn’t. My service suddenly cut off without warning yestererday. I stupidly thought I was receiving the SMSes, not sending them. I’ve asked giffgaff to reconsider but I highly doubt they will

dario1985

dtuxcomp
You would think so but nope nothing! I hold my hands up to using this app without knowing it was not allowed. Having been with giffgaff for years and purchased two phones via them I am dissappointed in myself for not doing more research before using this app and in giffgaff for not giving a warning to me to inform me my actions was not allowed. Just been told my account is permently banned and I am welcome to transfer my number to another network. So thrown under the bus basically after years of hassel free service. Only used this app for just over a month. I really want to stay with giffgaff and learn from this but I guess they don’t want that. 🙁

dtuxcomp

mrjeeves Sorry, I didn’t mean a warning in the T&C’s I meant do people who are doing this receive any kind of message asking them to stop before they are banned ?

mrjeeves

dtuxcomp

No, it all happens afterwards. After you’re barred you’d get a text and email about it.

It’s assumed you’d know as you “read” the T’s & C’s.

The agents “unbar” you after, so it’s “ok”. 🤔

hayba12

dtuxcomp no u don’t!! I’ve been barred since 2PM yesterday and had no warning msg or email anything I just got barred

hayba12

mrjeeves I’ve had no email call or text still and I’ve been barred since 2PM yesterday I contacted a agent last night and I’ve still not been informed by giffgaff I’m barred 😔

jesi23

mrjeeves It’s assumed you’d know as you “read” the T’s & C’s.

Many moons ago, I proposed an idea to
Require Reading of T&C before Joining is Possible
(05-11-2014 14:44)
https://labs.giffgaff.com/idea/15292782/require-reading-of-t-amp-c-before-joining-is-possible

Quote from the description of the idea:
CLEARLY, NOT EVERYONE BUYING A PHONE has read the MEMBER T&Cs to which they agreed when joining.

The technology exists to make the link for agreeing the Terms & Conditions conditional on clicking a link for Terms & Conditions before you can continue.

I have entered competitions, where instead of a ‘CONTINUE’ button there is a T&C button which brings a box up containing the Terms & Conditions with the Agree button at the bottom of the Terms & Conditions.

The giffgaff ‘Terms & Conditions’ are not so extensive that they cannot be skimmed quickly, and then no one could complain they did not already know ‘Up Front’ about the policies.

SO REQUIRE THEM TO READ THEM before they join.

I read them through. But then I also read the Microsoft T&Cs before installing my productivity software for Word/Excel/PowerPoint, and before agreeing anything …

… which is probably why I have not installed WhatsApp, and don’t use Facebook or Twitter or various other social media!🙄

_{_🤡}

ajk49

mrjeeves
Can I just ask for clarity? 1.Once it becomes apparent that this 3rd party app or similar is being used, then that is an instant ban/suspension? It is a type of fraud? Wilful or not, unlike,

A giffgaffer member who
exceeds unlimited calls and texts which are still subject to a fair usage policy. They would get a warning?
If this is the case then I can understand the instant suspension without warning.

exmember-8789225

mrjeeves They don’t send anything to tell you your permanently banned, they just cut your service with no word, I only found out when I had to speak to an agent who then told me and the suspension is permanent

timwilliams25

Don’t know why anyone would risk opening up access to their phone to a third party app like mofone or similar. For a potential small payment, you are giving the app developer access to your phone’s call and text services. You don’t know what is being send and to who.

How do you fell if you are bombarded with nonsense text/spam messages? Well uses these apps, you are promoting it

mrsgrowler

Thank you to those who replied to my previous post as I realise now that what I should have queried was not the whole last paragraph but just this bit

dcameron194 If you find that you have unused allowances at the end of the month, the best approach is to save money by buying a smaller goodybag that still covers your needs - because we don’t lock you in, you’re free to change to a lower plan when you need it, or one with more data if you’re expecting to use more. To make sure you’re getting the right goodybag for you,

which refers specifically to unused allowances and the possibility of changing bag size to a smaller one thus reducing one’s unused allowance.
But now that all bags have unlimited calls and texts the only “unused allowance” that can be affected by changing bag size is data hence why I asked if this app also affected data.

jaymailsays

mrsgrowler hence why I asked if this app also affected data.

Theoretically if you install one of those rogue apps you are handing control of your device to a third party who could certainly manipulate your data but I can’t see how the app owners could financially profit from your data allowance unless they signed you up for services that impacted on any credit balance you might have.

dcameron194

Hi everyone

While we do fully understand the concerns of members, the issue here is twofold:

Firstly, by downloading the app, you allow a third party to automatically control the messages send from your giffgaff account. This is clearly and expressly forbidden by our terms and conditions.

Furthermore, we do not know what else this app is doing without our members consent or knowledge so, from a security perspective, we must discourage the use of this sort of app.

The second point is around the nature of the SMS messages being sent by this app. The messages are not standard SMS, they are billed differently and at a high cost by the company operating the numbers being sent messages. Rather than pass the cost of these messages on to our members, and bill them as out-of-bundle usage as we do with premium rate SMS, we swallow the extra.

There comes a point, however, when we see excessive usage (thousands of messages per month per user in some cases) and the costs associated with them, we have to take action to protect the gaff and our members. If we didn’t, we would be forced to increase prices for everyone.

We completely understand that you may not have understood what this app does and how it works – a fact the makers of this app rely upon. Our terms and conditions are clear, however, and the volume of usage seen has somewhat forced our hand in this matter.

Dave

mrjeeves

dcameron194 The second point is around the nature of the SMS messages being sent by this app. The messages are not standard SMS, they are billed differently and at a high cost by the company operating the numbers being sent messages. Rather than pass the cost of these messages on to our members, and bill them as out-of-bundle usage as we do with premium rate SMS, we swallow the extra.

Can you let us know if @i_am_sy’s guess was correct, to do with the termination charge, just to make sure we’re not handing out false info.

corin70238

dcameron194 it seems to me that giffgaff are looking after their customers!!!! Why would u allow a 3rd party access to your phone and account w n giffgaff does and gives so much???? Idiots!!! hayba12

helen87402

dcameron194 I would be too scared to allowed anyone free access to my messages and allow them to send anything, they could literaly land you in jail!

dcameron194

mrjeeves

Hi There

Yes, you are pretty close. The termination charge of the number ranges being used by MoFoNo are higher than they should be for a normal mobile phone.

So, while we expect a charge of X from the terminating network, which allows us to count this in our unlimited usage heading; we actually receive a charge of Y. Less than a premium rate number, but more than a regular number, it varies between apps.

This leaves us with an outstanding balance that we do not charge our member and have to pay ourselves. Times this by thousands of messages a day and hundreds or thousands of users of the app, and it very quickly becomes unsustainable.

We therefore have to stop the usage of the few members using the app, or pass the additional cost on to all members… something we REALLY don’t want to do.

I can’t comment on the inner workings of the app (as much as I’d like to have a very close look at it), but your summery is accurate based on the raw data we see in our network.

Again, I urge any member looking at an app like this to avoid it at all cost. It will breach out T&C’s and it will likely result in the loss of giffgaff services.

Dave

jaymailsays

hayba12 I’ve had no email call or text still and I’ve been barred since 2PM yesterday I contacted a agent last night and I’ve still not been informed by giffgaff I’m barred

@mrjeeves misunderstood. Once you’re number is barred nothing gets through to your device not texts, calls or emails.

Are you able to call 443?

Your agent replies might be found here:-
https://giffgaff.com/support/questions