Unactivated SIMs expiry?

bertiebat

I posted an idea about ensuring that SIMs aren't needlessly expired but need some clarification from giffgaff as to how the current system works.

There is a mismatch between the official word that unactivated SIMs expire after 6 (sometimes 9) months and what actually happens (I've had SIM activated well over a year after I received them and as recently as March this year).

SIM GIVEN

07 FEB 2012

XXXXXXXX

08 MAR 2013

So I really don't think that SIMs do expire at the moment and also query why they should anyway?

I've always thought that the numbers aren't allocated until they are activated so what other reasons would there be for expiring unactivated SIMs?

I suspect unused SIMs are already being needlessly thrown away because people think they expire after 6 months. Those in the know can use the SIM checker to see if it's still live and safe to give out but most will simply end up in the bin (not very green)

I'm thinking that this needs sorting out once and for all and would appreciate an official response as to whether SIMs really do expire now or will do in the future (it maybe that they used not to and therefore older SIMs can work but newer ones might not after 6 months).

If they now do expire then why? as would it not be much more environmentally friendly to have unexpiring unactivated SIMs or at least a mechanism (thanks cim) to keep SIMs active if they haven't yet been handed out.

So giffgaff in order to properly propose an idea on maintaining live unactivated SIMs and sort out the confiction of what the t&cs say and what actually happens, can I have answers to the following questions please. 🙂

Are phone number already allocated to the unactivated SIMs (in which case this proposal is more complicated but not impossible)?

What mechanisms (if any) expire the unactivated SIMs and why?

Thanks

Bertie 🙂

pjr

>I've always thought that the numbers aren't allocated until they are activated so what other reasons would there be for expiring unactivated SIMs? <

Me and solid were discussing this recently and solid received confirmation from giffgaff that numbers are allocated to sims 'before' activation and suggested they then need to recover the numbers which is why they place a 6 month use by date on them. Make of that what you will 😉

oldyorkie

Hi Bertie ... I'd be interested to find out "the truth" about this ...

But one thing puzzles me?? ...
Shouldn't this have been posted before the idea?? 😛

At the minute your idea is sitting on the boards but has no concrete evidence that would back up your reasons for its posting and / or the proposed changes?

Once clarification is provided, I'll happily support it though ... good to be green 🙂

philiplittle40

I still get activations from sims I received last June - so clearly hasn't been any systematic process.

If that's changing then clarity definitely needed - its a pain to check every sim in the checker but feel I have to given the uncertainty.

bertiebat

@oldyorkie wrote:
Hi Bertie ... I'd be interested to find out "the truth" about this ...
But one thing puzzles me?? ...
Shouldn't this have been posted before the idea?? 😛
At the minute your idea is sitting on the boards but has no concrete evidence that would back up your reasons for its posting and / or the proposed changes?
Once clarification is provided, I'll happily support it though ... good to be green 🙂

Yes I agree that really I should have posted it in contribute first though my proposal is to always ensure that SIMs don't get needlessly expired whatever the current/future system is doing/going to do.

A backwards approach and yesterday I had a good reason for doing it (but for life of me now I can't think why I didn't post it here first). :smileysurprised:

If as pjr and solid have suggested that numbers are pre-allocated on the SIMs then this is going to be trickier as now I understand why they would now expire if this blog also covered unactivated SIMs also. http://community.giffgaff.com/t5/Blog/Recycling-mobile-numbers-giffgaff/ba-p/8211666

However it only points to activated SIMs.

Recycling old mobile phone numbers will affect numbers that we consider inactive, so this will only impact you if you have a phone with an activated giffgaff SIM that hasn’t been used in six months.

jokeyboi77

I saw a post from khairul i'm sure it was that had a sim activation after 18 months. :o So what actually happens after the 6 months does giffgaff reclaim the number manually or is it automated? And if it's automated then why are so many sims being activated after the 6 month period? So i'm with you on this one Bertie it would be nice to have this cleared up to prevent wasteage as you point out.

pjr

@ bertie

I can't remember who solid contacted but I believe it was an educator who then looked into it further before replying. Maybe solid will see this thread and pop in 😉

bertiebat

@pjr wrote:
@ bertie
I can't remember who solid contacted but I believe it was an educator who then looked into it further before replying. Maybe solid will see this thread and pop in 😉

Thanks pjr and I will send him a PM as he already commented on the idea saying he had received that information (but he wasn't convinced it was right).

It seems a very sensible idea to NOT allocate numbers to the SIMs so as not to waste them by expiring them and I always thought they were allocated by the activation process but this of course need absolute clarification.

pjr

>It seems a very sensible idea to NOT allocate numbers to the SIMs so as not to waste them by expiring them and I always thought they were allocated by the activation process but this of course need absolute clarification.<

Yep, I agree and that's the way I always thought it worked. Definitely needs clarifying once and for all.

jokeyboi77

Yes i think we all thought the same that the number wasn't allocated to the sim until the sim was activated. And that'll be why they're sending out the message just now about reclaiming numbers because they'll be running low on numbers if they're already attached to unactivated sims lol. 😛

So maybe it would make better sense to reclaim all the numbers from unactivated sims which are older than 6 months first before reclaiming numbers from sims which haven't been used for 6 months, but that's a different issue all together lol.

solid247

Hi bertie/others
Just to clarify i did recieve infomation regarding number allocation , and the number IS allocated prior to dispatch,
And my guess is that the number/ or expiry is not printed on the package
1. To prevent number skimming by ebayers ect
2. No expiry date is printed ( at the moment because the network is so small and the database could handle this without the need to reharvest MSISDN ( the number ) this is about to change

See Guru Pandits ( project manager of the technology and dev team ) introduction here >
http://community.giffgaff.com/t5/Welcome-News/Hello-giffgaff-Community/td-p/8167624/page/2
he states sims are preactivated ....so this leads us to beleive that Berties idea to not have a expiry date can not happen because sims will need a expiry date to be harvested for re use ( thats Gurus teams project )

But there is a way to stop the need to reharvest numbers and that is through a new type of system know as dynamic Sim allocation.
Basically this system allocates a Number at point of sale ( activation ) no number is preallocated and the sims are remotely provisioned ( which is what most of us though happened )
To change to a Dynamic sim allocation will cost a fortune but the savings will outway the cost long term.
I would also welcome some staff input to this thread. ( Gurus welcomed lol 🙂

pjr

Thanks for popping in, solid and confirming what I posted 😉

cim

@solid247 - that's useful info, thanks for posting it.

I posted a comment on bertiebat's idea post regarding extending the life of SIMs by some means - perhaps either by "refreshing them" via the GG web site or giving bulk ordered SIMs a longer expiry than one-offs.

In light of your explanation about the existing pre-allocation system - I wonder how difficult technically it would be to selectively extend the life of individual or blocks of SIMs where good reason to do so exists?

If we can save GG money and reduce waste this has to be worth exploring... 😉

solid247

@pjr im just posting what we found out before so its no problem

@Cim that would be a question for the development team , as im not exactly sure on how the reharvesting of unused numbers works , but i would think a database sweep will be done via a deadline date on expiry.
And i could not say if bulk 50 packs are stored en block, or if its just done on individual Numbers 🙂 sorry,
it would be nice to find out lets hope Guru's come up with a nice artical that we could question them on And remember its saving us money aswel lol

gurupandit

Hi Comrades,

I am glad that some good discussion is going on in this thread to go green. Thanks @solid247 for inviting me to this thread.

Here is the stuff you want to know. giffgaff don't put an expiry date on the SIMs as the SIMs don't really expire however the associated MSISDN does expire after 6 to sometimes 13 months. A project is in progress to disconnect older preactivated SIMs and recoup the mobile numbers to be put back into the pool.

Now this doesn't mean that we should throw away the unused old SIMs. We have functionalities in place (and tested last week) which allows to dynamically allocate MSISDN to a pre-activated but disconnected SIM, albeit the activation of such SIM takes a lil longer than a pre-activated SIM.

Gope's blog about Number recycling and the 6 month deactivation rule only applies to an activated SIM. Have read through it, if you haven't.

If you still got queries, fire them. I will try to respond on Monday.

solid247

@ Guru
Thanks very much for a very quick and welcome response. Now we can carry it forward to the ideas. Its great to get information from the horses mouth and i will be having a few words with one educator lol 🙂
Thanks again

bertiebat

Thanks gurupandit for dropping in (especially since I assume you are off over the weekend). 🙂

So it appears from your answer that there is a plan for non activated SIMs (which you call pre-activated) to be able to be activated at any point in the future (and therefore never expire in practical terms).

Just one final point though, in order for the SIMs to 'stay live' indefinitely from the recruiters point of view I assume that the new functionally would have to be in place before or at the same time you recoup the existing phone numbers/MSISDNs from unactivated SIMs. Is this that the plan?

If there isn't going to be any expiring in practical terms then it would be a great help to those that want to keep SIMs for recruiting to know that these don't really expire and are safe to hand out at any point.

With this in mind it would nice to change all references to unactivated SIMs expiring from the T&Cs and Knowledge Base as soon as possible to stop people wasting existing SIMs.

As solid (thanks mate) has already suggested it would be nice to have a blog telling us more about the plans in this area and to promote the knowledge that unactivated SIMs are going to be safe from expiring in the future. 🙂

solid247

Im extstatic lol erm cheers Bertie i was almost certain this was the case but got the wrong info in the first place,grrr

So we also need some information on the sim pack ? ' Non expiring sim'
We also know now that a member could have a choice of numbers at a price of course !
Im Really looking forward to any more info from Guru's team 🙂

pjr

Thanks for the input, guru. It also looks like the educators need educating in this instance 😉

allan1954

I gave a new gg a sim card over 14 months old it activated no one of problem.

gurupandit

Thanks for your input khairul (and for supporting the idea :smileywink 🙂 . I saw your post about the really old SIM activation and I wonder whether ANYONE has actually found a SIM that has failed to activate at any time due to it expiring (I've not seen a confirmed case tbh).

The good news is that there should be a way of ensuring that the SIMs never expire (in real terms) from what guru posted but it does need to be planned for as they will need to recoup those numbers some time in the future.

I only keep a small stock of SIMs as I'm worried that at some point they will expire (numbers recouped) and recently lost out on a request for 4 SIMs because of that. :smileysad:

Boys and Girls, Let me kick the confusion out of this thread.

To confirm, the SIMs never expire, unless they have already been activated, or they are really old pre 2G era SIMs (which if you find one, please post it to me for my collection :catwink 🙂 .

What we are doing as part of MSISDN Reuse Project is to disassociate the MSISDN from preactivated SIMs older than a certain period. It wouldn't stop you to activate those SIMs, as a new MSISDN will get dynamically allotted to it. The only downside to this process is that it would take comparatively longer for a dynamic activation to go through. Our tests have shown that the dynamic activatiion takes on an average 2 hours.

So the moral of the story, we are trying to recycle the MSISDN to control the costs and to be Green. But please dont throw away older SIMs, as they won't expire. (4G may eventually expire them, just as 3G expired 2G SIMs)