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Let's just STAY in the EU?

Started by: ytokyo
On: 28/11/2018 | 16:49
Replies: 494
Reply

by: snenklehen
on: 01/12/2018 | 23:05

The problem with all this "democracy is ever changing" argument is that we have not yet implemented the last democratic vote, and I think that's the point.  Brexit has been mandated by the people.  It was mandated when David Cameron said he would give people a referendum if he was voted in.  He was, and he did.

 

It was mandated when we had the referendum and 1,269,501 extra people said leave.  It's not just a handful it's over a million.  If you fill Chelsea's football stadium, you'd need over 30 stadiums of people.

 

It was then mandated again when May called a snap general election.  The Tories and Labour put leaving the EU in their manifesto.  The Lib Dems put remain in theirs.  So 12 MP's back remain.   572 came from the leave side. 

 

Yet we with the constant spin and lies in the press there is hope that these 3 democratic mandates can be overturned as they have 2 more years of children who have brainwashed and don't understand what their first vote would actually mean.

 

If it is overturned, and we remain, do we keep voting?  To we leave anyway (as we have to satisfy remain when we leave and make half and half, so surely that would be mirrored)    What I actually believe would happen is that we would never have the opportunity to leave again, or even be asked.  It's like Ireland being told to vote again, when they didn't vote the EU's way

 

So yes, I believe in democracy,  but true democracy.  Enact the will of the electorate, see how it goes, at least give it chance.  It's what people voted for.  If after 10 years (2 Parliament terms) people are not happy then maybe have another referendum.

 

 

Guilty of thought crimes - If there is hope, it lies in the proles.
Message 221 of 495
by: nefarius
on: 02/12/2018 | 01:35

The Brexit "promised" won't get delivered anyway. A different Brexit will be delivered. 

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Message 222 of 495
by: tooltrader
on: 02/12/2018 | 04:49
The way I look at memeberships Andy is often like a gym,loads of people join and end up never using it,may as well pay when need be.
Message 223 of 495
by: andyslc
on: 02/12/2018 | 08:08

@snenklehen The problem with that arguement is that governments are often elected on the promises they make and yet they don’t always deliver. Do we wait until they deliver to have an election?

 

This government has made a hash of negotiations , the final deal is far removed from anyone’s idea of what it would be. Substantial enough to go back to the people imo.

 

It also doesn’t asnswer the question: If Leavers are so sure a 2nd vote would go in their favour (as we keep hearing) then they should push for a legally binding referendum and settle it once and for all. My guess is that there is a bit of fluff and bluster in the claims. 

Veni vidi dormivi
Message 224 of 495
by: majorincident
on: 02/12/2018 | 08:43

Opinion has shifted since the 2016 referendum and even before the EU withdrawal agreement, people were pausing for thought.  The concensus is that Remain would win a second vote, especially if concentration was applied to what is actually in the deal and the position in which it puts the UK.

 

If by some miracle Mrs May is able to get the withdrawal through Parliament, we will end up in the middle of a large, muddy field faced with the unlovely prospect of wading our way to the edge.  However, the likelihood is that Parliament will reject the deal and given that Mrs May has ruled out a no deal departure, the only remaining option is a 'people's vote' unless the government goes for the nuclear solution of just saying 'we're staying'. Smiley LOL

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.
Message 225 of 495
Highlighted
by: acetech
on: 02/12/2018 | 09:30 edited: 02/12/2018 | 09:34

@majorincident wrote:

Opinion has shifted since the 2016 referendum and even before the EU withdrawal agreement, people were pausing for thought.  The concensus is that Remain would win a second vote, especially if concentration was applied to what is actually in the deal and the position in which it puts the UK.

 

If by some miracle Mrs May is able to get the withdrawal through Parliament, we will end up in the middle of a large, muddy field faced with the unlovely prospect of wading our way to the edge.  However, the likelihood is that Parliament will reject the deal and given that Mrs May has ruled out a no deal departure, the only remaining option is a 'people's vote' unless the government goes for the nuclear solution of just saying 'we're staying'. Smiley LOL

Although concensus was that remain would win the first referendum, though I'll be honest, I'm not sure which way a second would go, while some may be more determined to say leave, others may feel more betrayed and abstain, which to be honest is something I believe the remain camp would be hoping for.

 

Regarding Mrs May ruling out a no deal brexit, that severely weakened our negoting position, you cannot 'get tough' when the opposition in negotiation already knows you won't play hard ball. That's not to say we shouldn't have a deal of sorts, but if the EU know/knew that it was ruled out as an option why would they offer more than the minimum when they already knew they didn't need to.

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Message 226 of 495
by: majorincident
on: 02/12/2018 | 09:40

Indeed.  Mrs May said there would be no general election Smiley LOL  Parliament is pressing for the 'no deal' option to be ruled out and re-negotiating the withdrawal agreement has also been nixed by both Mrs May and the EU, so the option is really down to one.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.
Message 227 of 495
by: snenklehen
on: 02/12/2018 | 09:41

@andyslc wrote:

@snenklehen The problem with that arguement is that governments are often elected on the promises they make and yet they don’t always deliver. Do we wait until they deliver to have an election?

 

This government has made a hash of negotiations , the final deal is far removed from anyone’s idea of what it would be. Substantial enough to go back to the people imo.

 

It also doesn’t asnswer the question: If Leavers are so sure a 2nd vote would go in their favour (as we keep hearing) then they should push for a legally binding referendum and settle it once and for all. My guess is that there is a bit of fluff and bluster in the claims. 

I am not sure how a fourth vote would go.  You are failing to answer though if it went remain do we get another vote?  To we half leave anyway as we have satisfy everyone? 

 

Or is it a case of it goes the way you hope and you nail the lid on and that's it? 

 

Yeah thought so 

Guilty of thought crimes - If there is hope, it lies in the proles.
Message 228 of 495
by: majorincident
on: 02/12/2018 | 09:47

On what grounds would a Remain win be overturned?  The vote is the people's vote and answers the questions posed in a referendum on the EU withdrawal agreement.

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.
Message 229 of 495
by: andyslc
on: 02/12/2018 | 11:49

@snenklehen The point wth a second referendum would be to make it watertight and legally binding. Maybe with a clause that it wouldn’t be repeated within the term of the current government or the next, or if their is a substantial change in the EU, such as a move to a federal army. That would still leave Brexiteers with an option for a re run should it not go in their favour - would make the next election interesting for sure, and if they won that would also be to their advantage.

 

The major problem with the last ref was it was poorly worded and poorly informed on both sides. MPs shou”d have had the balls to make it legally binding first time round. Properly worded none of this would have been up for discussion. 

Veni vidi dormivi
Message 230 of 495