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Maybe it is Racism/Xenophobia

Started by: k89bpa
On: 20/01/2019 | 22:11
Replies: 100
Reply

by: k89bpa
on: 22/01/2019 | 23:58

@basil1921 wrote:


'Have you tried reading any of the objections to the EU from the left? I doubt it. The thing about Hard Remainers is that they seem remarkably ignorant about the anti-capitalist objections to the EU neo-liberal project. 

It not about "left" or "right", it's about the fact that everything I've heard from people who voted leave is either all immigration all of the time or the mindless repetition of soundbites spewed from the mouths of their chosen mouthpieces, claims which have been easily discredited.

 

I have seen and heard no-one expressing that they voted "leave" on the full or partial basis of "anti-capitalism". I have however seen some claim the EU is a "threat" to capitalism and I have seen accusations that the EU is attempting to build some kind of "socialist utopia". 

 

@basil1921 wrote:


'The Left Case Against the EU by Costas Lapavitsas, a Soas economics professor, takes issue with the idea that the EU is all about cooperation and togetherness, a borderless paradise of interrailing and Erasmus schemes.

How wonderful, another professional mouthpiece spouting off. 

 

Did you think because I'm left-leaning that I'd be more conciliatory towards someone on the left spouting off and attempting to influence people based on their thoughts and opinions? 

 

A mouthpiece is a mouthpiece be they "left" or "right", what I'm looking for and what I have been looking for for a while now is evidence that people voting have acquired knowledge and have understood and considered that knowledge before making their choice and that they are able to demonstrate this by explaining their reasons for voting leave, (or remain), without resorting to soundbites and/or parroting the crap spouted by their preferred mouthpiece. 

 

You quoting another mouthpiece does not counter my suggestion it simply reinforces it because you doing what you have done is no different to what those spouting crap about "swarms" are doing. You're just parroting someone else's opinion at me.

 

I know the professional mouthpieces opinions, I've seen them, heard them, for decades in many cases, however the professional mouthpieces cannot tell me why people voted one way or the other, and as I said before, whilst it is obvious that SOME voters on both sides sought out and considered the information before reaching a conclusion and voting in line with that conclusion, they make up a tiny, tiny proportion of the people who voted in the referendum.

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Message 61 of 101
by: nefarius
on: 23/01/2019 | 00:47

Charts eh! 

 

Screenshot_20190123-134403.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Message 62 of 101
by: extreme_one
on: 23/01/2019 | 07:12

@basil1921 wrote:

'It is amusing, how frequently we hear claims that "my vote wasn't about racism" instead of what that person's vote was about.'

Perhaps in your self-righteous Remainer redoubt you've never listened to any objections to the EU neo-liberal project, particularly from the left. Try this:

 

You've rather missed the point haven't you @basil1921

 

For every coherent argument against EU membership there are 50 using nothing but tired and predictable soundbites revolving around immigration.

 

In this thread there have been indignant claims of righteousness from Leave voters, who claim their vote wasn't about racism, despite failing to tell us why they did vote.

 

So no, nobody, not even someone wallowing in "self-righteous Remainer redoubt" (lol) believes everyone that voted to Leave is racist, but it does come across, when listening to their own reasoning, that most are, even if they don't care to admit as much.

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Message 63 of 101
by: silemairin
on: 23/01/2019 | 07:47
@nefarius I have stated that I read the M&Ltreaties and got sneered at, and how they get these figures who knows I have never been asked as to why I voted Leave
Message 64 of 101
by: nefarius
on: 23/01/2019 | 07:53

@silemairin wrote:

@nefarius I have stated that I read the M&Ltreaties and got sneered at, and how they get these figures who knows I have never been asked as to why I voted Leave

 

They take a "sample" for such reports. You weren't in that sample. 

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Message 65 of 101
by: extreme_one
on: 23/01/2019 | 07:55

"Why did you vote for labour in the General Election?"

 

"Because I read the Conservative manifesto."

 

But it doesn't really answer the original question @silemairin, does it?

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Message 66 of 101
by: andyslc
on: 23/01/2019 | 08:31

Setting aside the pros and cons of immigration, being against high levels of immigration isn’t by default racist. I shouldn’t need to define racism to the contributors on this thread but here it is for clarity:

 

“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.”

 

Asides from a very small number of people I have t heard much from the Leave side that in any way suggests a belief that we are any better than any other race or populace of another country. There have certainly been xenophobic comments, or comments that would certainly fit the description but may have been used with little thought. Again though, wanting tighter control of immigration on its own is not xenophobia. The definition of xenophobia is:

 

“dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.”

 

but by that definition (prejudice) any immigration control is xenophobic, including that operated by practically every country in the world. We therefore need to consider the “dislike” part when considering xenophobia. The difficulty when considering xenophobia is it’s an easy charge to make in this context but for one thing. Surely the bulk of the problem is not with people from other countries but political systems both at home and abroad (the EU). 

 

Except where entirely justified and utterly bleedin obvious I find these two labels unhelpful as they automatically provoke a defensive response (as shown on this thread) rather than any attempt to understand or discuss.

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Message 67 of 101
by: extreme_one
on: 23/01/2019 | 08:52

@andyslc when people continue to bemoan rising immigration, for causing wage decreases, stealing their jobs at the same time as poncing off us living on benefits, clogging up our NHS etc etc despite mounting evidence to the contrary, perhaps prejudice actually is the real reason why the blame is levied unjustly. Just a thought ...

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Message 68 of 101
by: nefarius
on: 23/01/2019 | 08:56

@extreme_one wrote:

@andyslc when people continue to bemoan rising immigration, for causing wage decreases, stealing their jobs at the same time as poncing off us living on benefits, clogging up our NHS etc etc despite mounting evidence to the contrary, perhaps prejudice actually is the real reason why the blame is levied unjustly. Just a thought ...

 

This observation is from spending too much time on this forum. I never once heard the word Brexit uttered, anywhere, in public. 

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Message 69 of 101
by: extreme_one
on: 23/01/2019 | 12:32 edited: 23/01/2019 | 12:38

@nefarius wrote:

@extreme_one wrote:

@andyslc when people continue to bemoan rising immigration, for causing wage decreases, stealing their jobs at the same time as poncing off us living on benefits, clogging up our NHS etc etc despite mounting evidence to the contrary, perhaps prejudice actually is the real reason why the blame is levied unjustly. Just a thought ...

 

This observation is from spending too much time on this forum. I never once heard the word Brexit uttered, anywhere, in public. 

I guess you don't watch UK news, Question Time etc etc ... It's been the only topic for the last 2 3 years!

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Message 70 of 101